Mean or True – which do you use? This is one of those discussions between astrologers where everyone has an preference and opinion. Perhaps I should amend the word ‘everyone’ considering not every astrologer uses Black Moon Lilith. She is a contentious issue in some circles but despite some misgivings, she isn’t going away.
I’m not going to pretend for a second that I understood initially why I made my choice of which Black Moon to use. It was purely based on my association with the words ‘true’ and ‘mean’. Mean is just…well…nasty! “True is the truth” quipped my mind so I plumped for that version.
But as I got to know Lilith and her essence got to know me, I started to toy with the mean version. I’m an astrologer after all and it’s important to figure out what works for each of us in practice. But Lilith turned mean. She didn’t want to play. She shouted me down. So before she truly kicked my backside, I reverted back to the True. Astrologers such as Marina at Darkstar Astrology and Kelley Hunter however have elegantly combined the use of both True and Mean Lilith.
But what exactly are we talking about when we talk about Mean and True Lilith?
I decided to go back and find out exactly what it was all about.
There is a subtle disagreement about what Lilith actually is in the chart. She is described as either the apogee of the Moon or the second focus of earth – huh?
Ok, so let’s start at the beginning.
The Moon travels around the Earth.
The Earth-Moon system travels around the Sun.
In a perfect world, much like those old fashioned astronomy pictures, the orbit of the Moon around the earth and the orbit of the Earth around the Sun would be perfect circles. But the universe isn’t perfect, not in that way anyway 🙂
The orbit of the Moon around the earth is an elliptical shape rather than a perfect circle. This means that there isn’t one central point around which the Moon revolves, there are in fact two. One is inside the earth and the other – well the other is what we call Lilith. Astronomers however would call this other point the second focus. I struggled to get my head around this until I saw a picture of how to draw an ellipse which reminded me of my scary art teacher at school who used to throw various objects at you if you didn’t listen but I digress…
Check out this image here then come back…
The foci are centres of gravity. Lilith in this context has weight yet she is also invisible. Already we have a sense of her – a ghost in the system that affects us even though we can’t see her. It’s funny, in mythology, Lilith is repulsed by iron. The core of the earth is mostly iron. When I look at the two foci, I think of Earth on one side, Lilith on the other like two magnets facing north to north.
But some astrologers don’t think of Lilith as the second focus. From reading around the internet, I get the impression that far more astrologers think of Lilith as the apogee of the Moon.
Let’s go back to the Moon’s elliptical orbit around the Earth. If you check out my image above, you can see that the elliptical orbit will at one point put the Moon at the farthest point away from Earth that she can be. At the other end of the spectrum, she is at her closest to Earth. The furthest point away is the ‘apogee’, the nearest point is ‘perigee’. We see this in action with so called ‘supermoons‘ like that which occurred in March 2011. Supermoons are when the Full Moon coincides with the lunar perigee. At these times, the Full Moon looks super big!
Looking closely, you can see that from Earth’s point of view the second focus and the moon’s apogee are in the same sector of space, at the same degree in the zodiac as each other. So really when astrologers say Lilith is the second focus or Lilith is the apogee of the Moon, both are right. Personally, I take both points into account in the symbolism.
The thing is, astronomers and therefore astrologers have a hell of a time calculating the actual path of the Moon. The ellipse itself isn’t the clear straight line you see on my diagram. It’s wiggly like it was drawn with a seriously bad hangover. A combination of space factors such as the gravitational pull of the Sun tug at the Moon so that she wobbles around us.
So what has all this to do with mean and true Lilith?
Because astronomers can’t calculate precisely where the Moon is moving next, they use complex calculations to get a general idea of her current orbit. The mean orbit simply smoothes out all the potential wiggles in the line by working everything out on average. Once this mean orbit is plotted, the Moon’s apogee (or rather Lilith) can also be calculated.
True Lilith is calculated a little differently. In this case, the possible orbit is based on the moon’s current trajectory. The apogee/Lilith is calculated for that moment. In the next moment, that position may change. It makes me think of pulling a tarot card which predicts the future given the current situation. Change the present and you change the future. Lilith has this prophetic sense to her. A primal call deeply connected to the simple essence of being – and non-being. She is a wild card.
Mean Lilith never retrogrades whereas True Lilith leaps backwards and forwards through the zodiac seeming to echo her flight from the Garden of Paradise. Her eccentric course seems to say “I will go where I please – the hell with you!”. This wild motion to me seems more representative of Lilith’s energy. By re-visiting points or planets in the chart, she seems to be insisting we listen to her. By repetition, she makes her presence known.
True Lilith is technically called the ‘osculating apogee’. I’d not come across the word ‘osculating’ before so, ever the English student I looked up the meaning. It’s derived from the Latin word meaning ‘to kiss‘. Whilst I was there, I also looked up the etymology of ‘apogee‘ – it means ‘away from Earth’.
But what is most fascinating is this – Lilith is only truly defined when she is either exactly conjunct the Moon or exactly opposite the Moon. At all other times she is simply a potential who may or may not be really there. But when she is conjunct and opposite the Moon, that’s when we see her. The Moon brings her to life – or perhaps like a ghost, the Moon provides the psychic lens by which we can see her. I think there is far more study to do on this. Does Lilith conjunct or opposite the Moon in the birth chart manifest more acutely? In these positions is she given a voice like a spirit speaking through a medium? I have noticed some very stark manifestations in charts of clients who have True Lilith conjunct the Moon. More on that to come in the future.
I adore Lilith – both her darkness and light. I have seen her in my dreams. She has been the night hag sitting on my chest choking me, a beautiful seductress pulling me to her breasts, an ancient witch showing me shelf upon shelf of occult tomes. She was there in my Father’s fist connecting with my head. She was there in my absolute refusal to submit. True Lilith is conjunct my Sun. I have touched that black murderous rage, felt invisible, experienced her absolute sense of connection. I remember floating in space, vast and beautiful hearing her whisper songs of the stars. And I see her looking back at me sometimes in the mirror – and then with a cackle she’s gone.
Sources and Resources
Astro.com Swiss Ephemeris details
Astro.com Lilith Article
Mountain Astrologer Article by Kelley Hunter
To find Mean and True Lilith in your chart at Astro.com
Create your Chart here
Astro.com defaults to mean Lilith.
If you want to find True Lilith in your chart, type in h13 in ‘additional objects under Free Horoscopes – Horoscope Chart Drawings – Extended Chart Selection
Wow. When I start working with her, I’ll reference your work.
Thanks Neeti – she’s a little bit addictive!
wow beautifully said 🙂 question: is this the same as north/south node?
Thank you so much for this article, Leah. I love Lilith and I have allways worked with it. I have a strong one myself: Balck Moon Lilith in Capricorn, square to my Hades Moon and opposite Saturn. Ah! And conjunct my North Node in the 6th house.
I’m waiting for the next article. Only few people talk about Lilith (the darkest fears of the colective unconsious!) and write about it.
This is very enlightning.
Hugs*
Hi Susana – thank you. I’m glad you enjoyed the article. Lilith is a fascinating mystery.
Black Moon conjunct the Node is very interesting. There seems to be a theme about embracing wildness there 🙂
Hi Chloe
Thanks for your question – Black Moon Lilith is a different point to the North-South Node. The North and South Nodes are the points where the path of the Sun and the Path of the Moon cross. There’s a good little diagram and explanation on the following website http://www.astro.com/mtp/mtpt5_e.htm
The Moon’s nodes can be true or mean similar to Black Moon Lilith
Is the Llith you talk abt. any relation to the astroid of the same name. I have Llith conj. Pisces Sun, Pallas, Diana. My instinctive feeling for Llith has always been positive. Maybe, just maybe, she travels in and out of our deminsion. At the moment the tech. parts of what you wrote escape me. I just think that the mythology that she said that she wouldn-t submit to Adam is just what women need as an example. Eve, leaves me cold. Nice, gag, submissive, gag, etc.
Hi Mary
My research has concentrated solely on Black Moon Lilith but I’m aware that there is also an asteroid Lilith. I believe Kelley Hunter interweaves the use of asteroid Lilith as well. I do plan to do some research into asteroid Lilith at some point.
I love the myth of Lilith – she certainly has her dark side but I think she has a great deal to offer as well.
this is a great article; i just had a reading done which brought up lilith-i’ve all 3 aspected heavily-asteroid, mean and true. btw, i think it’s interesting that ‘mean’ also means ‘average, as in the statistical mean’, as well as ‘the definition of something-what does it mean?’ when applied symbolically to mean lilith, as well as the nasty mean’; she has so many facets, as does this word!
Hi again Laurie
Yes, it’s fascinating the play on the word ‘mean’. Lilith certainly can bring a sense of ‘meaning’!
Wanted to share with you a paper I wrote a long time ago…..
Priapus, look up him astrologically with Lilith to get a complete
understanding. The asteroid was named after a lil girl named lilith.
I have been studying Lilith and the other asteroid goddesses for quite
sometime. My friend from Belgium taught me something interesting that
I would like to share with the rest of you, and see if it also applies
to you all (That area of the world always has been on a different wave
length of astrology then English speaking countries).
Lilith works on an axis, the opposite point is known as Priapus (I use
the Janus the astrology program myself, and in fact it always list
Priapus opposite to Black Moon Lilith, not Asteroid one). This
opposite point is what you do in your daily life, and have no-way out
of doing it. It’s always played out. In the myth of Priapus, his penis
was so huge that it scared woman away, and punished male thieves by
using sodomy on them!!!
Priapus, god of virility and fertility, was the Greek and Roman
protector of gardens, vineyards, and orchards. Depicted with enormous
genitals, he ensured fertility and good fortune. His statue served as
both scarecrow and guardian divinity. He was, moreover, the patron of
all in need of luck, especially men and women in search of sexual
satisfaction. Although he is generally depicted as heterosexual in his
tastes, Priapus numbered among his devotees men who were attracted to other men (go figure).
His parents are Dionysus, God of Sex, Wine and Intoxication, and
Aphrodite, Goddess of Love, and brother to Hymenaeus, God of Weddings and Getting Married. When you think of the relationship between all of them, you can see a common thread. OVER THE TOP kind of deal…
Now I don’t know too much about it, so I’m trying to see how this god
and Lilith matches up. Lilith is kicked out of the garden; Priapus is
denied love because his penis is too big…guess penis envy, size,
wasn’t too important…
Use the intuitive noodle, because not too much is written about this
subject, I would love any ones option or feedback. Anyways personal
option to me is just as valid as some “quote on quote” expert that
writes an article and uses fancy design to make it appealing to the
eye. That’s why when I read a lot of these astrology articles; I
remember first and foremost… most of it isn’t based off of research,
but of option, and…REMEMBER THAT!!
It says that Lilith is the point of fascination,where a person feels
the emotional urge to grow beyond themselves. It`s the point where a
person has much power, but often decides to suppress the power. Or she exaggerates the urge to be independent, which often forces her to be distant to other people.
Priapus now is a point, where you feel rather powerless. But at this
point you have a strong capability and longing to merge with others,
to feel for them, to develop empathy and basically it`s the point
where you can adapt to others to the point of losing yourself.
Priapus is also the god of health and fertility (son of Venus and
Bacchus / Dionysos). And it seems, according to mythology, he was
having a constant erection. Well, what could you expect of a God, who
is son of the goddess of erotic love and the god of extasy? lol
But I think it just symbolizes that he is very much in touch with the
earth, with all instincts, with a strong desire to merge and become
ONE with earth / life.
Maybe the difference between Lilith and Priapus is like this:
Both are driven by very strong desires.
But Lilith demands to be equal, independent, to voluntarily turn to
someone, or else she will repell or be repelled. She can`t make any
compromises. In the best sense she`s painfully truthful, and she makes
great sacrifices (like being rejected from society) to maintain her
independence.
Priapos on the other hand has such a great need to merge, that he will
sacrifice the truth for it. He will make any compromises that are
necessary to be close to someone. But since PRiapos is also a male
God, he seems to be also prone to become sexually violent or absusive,
to force closeness to his “object of affection”.
At least the myth tell about him attempting to rape at least two
goddesses / nymphs. But every time the rape has been interrupted,
before it could be done, and Priapus has been kicked out.
He is a nasty little god, isn`t he? At least in the myth.
But on the positive side he has a very direct access to his fertility and lust.
I`m not really sure what to make of it astrologically. But maybe
Priapus depicts a point in the horoscope where there is an
overwhelming urge to merge, which may become so overwhelming and
desperate that you may humilate yourself, by committing really low
acts (be they destructive towards others as in an attempted rape. or
be they selfdestructive, by “offering” yourself, even if you know that
you will never get back enough, so that you will be satisfied; the
willingness to live a lie just to feel the illusion of merging.)
But I think there must also be a positive way to see Priapus and
Lilith. Maybe Priapus can offer that empathy like it has been said in
that article I mentioned.
Priapus
Priapus is mean Lunar perigee. The point opposite the Priapus is the
Black Moon. Priapus is a mathematical point that corresponds to
position of the Moon when it is at Perigee (that point in its orbit
when it is closest to the Earth)
Black Moon
The Black Moon is a mathematical point that corresponds to position of
the Moon when it is at Apogee (that point in its orbit when it is
farthest from the Earth). The point opposite the Black Moon is called
Priapus.
Rather too much sex for either power(lilith) or a sense of feeling
whole(propias) can be bad.
i got my Lilith at 2 Taurus….Pluto at 2 Scorpio. its complemented
with Neptune at 2 Capricorn, Sun 2 Cancer, and the Moon at 5 Virgo.
thank god im a male lol seriously. Vertex is also 5 Pisces.
Hi Allan
WOW! Thank you so much for your comment, thoughts and sharing research. I had come across Priapus in my research on Lilith and was very curious but as yet I haven’t looked further into it. It does seem natural to have something which represents the perigee as we have BML at apogee. I think both have their positive and negative manifestations as do the planets in the chart.
I think your idea about the concept of ‘truth’ for both Lilith and Priapus rings very true! Lilith certainly seems willing to sacrifice herself or some important aspect of herself in order for the truth to be told.
Absolutely fascinating – thank you 🙂
Still trying to make sense of Lilith in my own life, but very interesting. I have True Lilith conjuct my moon pluto conjunction (by less than a degree) in Virgo. I would say I am quite intense and tend to attract intense individuals and situations (have spent a lot of time around people when they were going through loss and grieving). It feels as though these situations have been healing. Definitely relate to the ideas about seeing things below the surface and a degree of premonition. I have a close friend who is born a few hours after me, who also has this aspect and interesting to see how Lilith might have played out in her life, as a point of comparison.
Hi Lexie
Thanks for sharing your Lilith experience. It seems like you have connected with her energies very well. It must be really interesting to be able to compare notes with your friend. I can see how her position in your chart would give a natural predisposition to help others experiencing loss – an intense understanding of the concept of abandonment perhaps and the depths of grief. It’s not necessarily an easy aspect but I think as you say, Lilith can bring great healing.
My thanks too to Allen and hostess. and contributors – I’m just there again with her, the mean bitch. Serious she’s on 26 degrees tauras, the evil degree of algol and the moon in transit is approaching showing off her worse side no doubt. . “But Lilith demands to be equal, independent, to voluntarily turn to
someone, or else she will repell or be repelled. She can`t make any
compromises. In the best sense she`s painfully truthful, and she makes
great sacrifices (like being rejected from society) to maintain her
independence.” and I have just come to this pt. in a relation. But my lilith is conjunct chiron and that bridge or leap of faith already transpired so when I read that Lilith is indeed the 5th dimension, I agreed. It was indeed a great sacrifice – a 58th yr, times running out, it’s now or never leap towards my childhood best friend only to find the infinite me.
Today I found this site as I wondered what might happen with her on Algol, the evil one. and the moon approaching. Thanks for the works.
Hi Charyl – Thank you for sharing your thoughts and life experience with Lilith. Blessings to the infinite you!
Lilith, the apogee, is empty, hence our capacity to see emptiness. Nothing is ever good enough for her and it is because she tells us what’s missing that we can make improvements. Without this capacity the world would not evolve. That’s why Lilith is wisdom. She knows perfection, and through this wisdom we can propel forward our ever imperfect existence. Lilith will refuse to compromise. And the world will refuse her for this (for now).
Priapus, the perigee, is the opposite : it represents the absence of evolution hence constant repetition. We need this growing up in order to connect to the world around us. (This is lacking in autistic children.) But in adulthood if we get trapped in the perigee, our life becomes a cycle of dullness. We may think we’re happy, cause we’re comfortable, but we lost connection to our soul and the light in our eyes has faded.
Given we have not lost our wisdom in childhood completely, it takes strength to uphold the wisdom of Lilith, cause no-one will accept it, let alone love us for it. We may seem frightening to the many, afraid to leave their comfort zone. Very few will love our sense of perfection, yet many will benefit from it. We will be free from our earthly chains to help those who are not.
Hi Lilith
Many thanks for your beautiful exploration of Lilith! I haven’t worked a great deal with Priapus so it’s wonderful to hear your understanding of it. Thank you.
Very interesting article. I have True Lilith and Mean Lilith conjunct my moon and pluto (less that a degree between them), so I do feel this Lilith energy has been very much a feature of my life. I have found it to be quite frustrating at times too, working with this energy and how other people relate to it. I definitely feel I have to hold back in order to be acceptable in this world…maybe I haven’t really found an outlet for this Lilith energy.
Hi aleejane, thanks for your comment. That is a powerful placement indeed. With True Lilith directly conjunct my Sun, I can relate to that feeling of holding back in order to be acceptable. I think I spent a long time trying to hide my Lilith. She can be a frightening as well as wildly creative – ecstatic almost. It’s a giant energy to play with from such a little point in the chart! I agree, I think she needs an outlet – a route to express herself, otherwise I think she has a tendency to bleed through at unexpected moments. Maybe when you find your way of expressing her, she may be a catalyst for emotional transformation giving you a final sense of belonging rather than needing to hold back.
Allan,
it would have been courteous to indicate the paragraph, when you started to quote my post from Lindaland in 2007.
Leah,
I am glad I stumbled across this article. You explained the calculations and interpretation really well. Thank you for that.
I myself am usually paying most attention to the true Lilith, too.
However I have found that he mean Lilith delivers surprisingly fitting results as well; too fitting to ignore her, though I am not yet totally sure what to make of this.
I am still more of a “true Lilith-kind of person.
In my chart the difference between both is only 4 degrees (mean Lilith on 24 Aquarius in 2nd house, true Lilith on 28 Aquarius in 3rd house).
After doing some more research, Priapus indeed seems to be a point that varies even more research. I am surprised how often he comes up, along with Lilith of course.
Hi Darkdreamer – Oh I’m sorry the person below quoted without the link/reference. If you would like let me know the URL, I will happily post it here as it was really great information.
Thanks for your comment. I really do need to do some more research re. mean Lilith and Priapus! True does feel just ‘right’ for me but that doesn’t make mean Lilith ‘wrong’ either. Lilith is a complicated and fascinating lady 🙂
Hi Leah,
thank you.
It`s been long ago, but I guess I must have said something good, if I am getting quoted. So that is the nice part.
Also I noticed that this person`s Lilith-Pluto-opposition is on the exact antiscion/ contrascion of my own Lilith (true) and opposite/conjunct my 3rd house ruler Uranus. Things like these fascinate the astrologer in me. 🙂
I am with you though, true just feels “true” to me, too.
And yes, Lilith is fascinating. She is resurfacing again and again, since I initially met her. And so is her polar opposite, Priapus.
Lol, very interesting chart connections between you! Thanks for the link, it’s a fascinating discussion. I will add the link into Allan’s comment below so it is clear where the info comes from. And wow, the butterflies! That is just beautiful.
Thank you, Leah.
However, the quote was just the latter part of Allan`s post, the beginning was his own – I think.
My quote started from: “It sais that Lilith is a point of fascination”.
And I have always loved butterflies; actually they loved me, too. When I was a teenager, they would actually always sit down on my shoulder or rim of my glasses. It was weird.
But somehow it makes sense to me, this symbol for Lilith.
Oops – I’ll correct it in a sec 🙂 Butterflies are beautiful!
Hi,
I have my black lilith conjunct exact my NN at 8 degrees Virgo in the 7th house and the man I love (it’s complicated) has his Lilith conjunct mine (5 degrees Virgo). My NN conjuncts his Mars. My Vertex and Saturn are conjunct his Sun exact (18 degrees Virgo). All I can say is that we are both workaholics and that passion is irresistible more from my side. But that Lilith-NN-his lilith conjunction always makes me wonder what’s its meaning?? I’m a Libra… 4 planets in Libra in the 8th house so I am not a psychic just a psychologist lol! But I do over analyze all related to the mind… And I can also get quite detached when I feel emotions are not genuine. Any other ideas??? Thank you!
Hi Shab – Thanks for your comment. Lilith conjunct the North Node suggests that part of your path in life is to embrace the qualities of Lilith – getting in touch with your wildness, your own divine feminine. She may (depending on the rest of your chart) be the antidote to over-analysis. Lilith doesn’t think, she just feels. With his Lilith conjunct yours, he triggers your wild desire nature.
I still don’t know which lilith I use. the one on Additional objects (astro.com) or the H13 one I am stille confused please help me
I have my lilith parallel my ascedant and contra parallel my moon, i also notice strong emphasis of dark godess on my asc i have Hecate and Lilith paralleling the ascedant contra parallel the moon
Hi Aissa – sorry for the very delayed response! H13 is Black Moon Lilith (True Position). Lilith in the additional objects box is the Black Moon Lilith (mean position).
Asteroid Lilith is 1181
You have some fabulous dark Goddess energy there Aissa 🙂
Don’t worry about it,thank you for reply, I always had a fascination with strong dark women and witches, I am always attracted to plutonian and lilithian female and strong female I always admired independent and strong women and encourage them despite being man
I also have Eris contra parallel my sun and venus conjunction
I also have sun conjunct lilith/node midpoint with 1°47
I also noticed by adding my part of fortune to my chart, I have the part of fortune lilith midpoint conjunct my sun, and I think the part of fortune/lilith energy mean person will find fortune in expressing their independence and going to dark places and casting all demons and conjunct sun mean how I express myself activate this energy
Hi Aissa – I think that sounds like a great interpretation of the PoF connection to Lilith and the Sun.
Hi Aissa – I think when we have such strong contacts in our charts with these powerful Goddess archetypes, we are naturally drawn to those who embody that – perhaps to help us really understand these energies in ourselves. I feel something similar as my Black Moon is directly conjunct my Sun.
As woman I think you embodie those energy and you indenitfy with them and people will pick up this energy from you just like my sister who has her sun conjunct her lilith I could pick up the lilithian vibe from her.As man,I think it’s diffrent those godess may soften the animus (the masculine side) and give a strong anima and feminine side,men with strong godess energy emphasis in his chart might live around strong women and will be attracted to powerful women.
Despite their role of soften the masculin side they intensfie the feminie and emotional side,this guy might close to women more than men and he is in touch with his feminine side I think those men have to face their emotion everyday and those godess give the gift of wisdom and insight and calmness symbolized the owl and serpent kunadlini). and for men with dark godess (lilith) I think they are diffrent than man with light godess (ceres,vesta,pallas)
Very true, I agree that the energies work can differently in men and women. I also agree that there is a distinct difference in the light and dark Goddess. Each have their own expression. I have always had a connection to owls. I have an owl ornament behind me as I work 🙂
It would be interesting to study more how these Goddesses manifest in the charts of men and women.
I agree with you,further studies will help us know more about those godess
Thanks so much for this elegant, concise exploration of Lillith. A friend and I have recently begun to explore Her, and your explanations are very clear. Thanks also for the tasty links!
Hi Lin – Thanks for reading! Yes Lilith is a fascinating lady 🙂
I suspect that BML is a very powerful energy in my own natal chart (though it makes no aspects to my moon) and I’ve been trying to put words to how I experience this energy.
As I considered the story of Lilith, it occurred to me that she paid the price for her feminine power by being banished from Eden. In my own chart, I found that this is an excellent way to interpret BML energy, with the house placement signifying the particular area of life where one “pays the price for the feminine aspects of one’s power.”
Priapus as an opposing energy to BML is a completely new concept for me; if BML’s energy is where someone “pays a price” in that part of their chart, might it be said that the Priapus point is where they accordingly receive rewards by channeling that type of Lilith, feminine energy?
This makes perfect sense for my life. I have BML and Sun tightly conjunct in the 4th house. Priapus, accordingly, is exactly opposite, in my 10th house. My childhood home was a place where I experienced a high level of feminine disempowerment, and every member of my nuclear family had a specific set of strategies that they used to disempower me. I was the target of my father’s existential anger and experienced many beatings and emotional cut-downs from him. One of my sisters made of point of tormenting me by saying I was adopted. My mother was simply emotionally unavailable. In my adult life, I married late (1st marriage at ager 35, 2nd marriage at age 50). I never had children of my own… this was partly by choice and partly by circumstances… I’m capable, as far as I know, but had many reasons why I didn’t want to have children. My current husband is awesome… but his ex-wife is mentally ill and has told her children that their marriage broke up because I was having an affair with their father (truth is, it’s a gray area… they had already separated (no longer lived in the same house), but were still “legally” married when their father and I got together. The ex has also run a parental alienation campaign against her husband, and I also am affected by the fallout from that. Throughout my life, home and family are places where I’ve had precious few emotional and spiritual victories.
Once I started working for my living, though, I excelled, got larger, and became filled with vigor (after all, growing in size and filling with blood is what a ‘priapus’ does in order to function properly, yes? :-} ). I quickly found my way to working as an administrative assistant (a very “female” occupation historically speaking) and I felt validated and accepted by people who appreciated my work.
These days, I do not work for money, but I do volunteer 8-10 hours a week providing direct support to hospice patients and their caregivers and families. (Empathy and compassion are considered to be powerful “feminine” qualities, yes? :-} ) In a way, these folks become like family to me, but the hospice worker must release those relationships in a healthy way after the patient dies. Becoming too attached can lead to unhealthy codependencies. My effectiveness in this work happens because while I give all when I am working with patients and families, I know not to “cling” to these relationships and I always release them emotionally and spiritually at the proper time.
So, a continuum of opposites:
— BML house placement: the area of life where you are demonized for the feminine aspects of your power and exiled from society.
— Priapus house placement: the area of life where you are canonized (i.e, made a saint) for the feminine aspects of your power. This house is where you find a door back into a particular nice in a society and are able to channel your Lilith energy to great effect.
*niche in society
Hi Middleworldwitch, thanks for sharing your experience of BML. I haven’t studied Priapus much but your comments are very insightful!
I have Sun in 5’20 Scorpio conjunct retrograde True Black Moon in 5’42 Scorpio which is hard to isolate from my Ixion in 5’25 Scorpio and South Eris Node in 5’29 Scorpio.
Sun-True Black Moon-Ixion-South Eris Node conjunction
Ixion is a plutino (has 2:3 orbital resonance with Neptune like Pluto does) and transneptunian dwarf planet candidate.
Eris is a scattered disk object (an object that has very high oribtal eccentricity,very high inclination, and a perihelion greater than 30 Astronomical Units) and transneptunian dwarf planet, and its nodes (two abstract points in space that symbolizes the entire motion of the particular object) are collective energy points.
Years after the posting of this article, I’ve stumbled upon it via Google. I just wanted to say that I too have been working with a natal Sun conjunct true Lilith (<1 deg orb). Upon reading the last paragraph, I nearly broke into tears. Thank you for your presence, however remote it may be. I'm ecstatic to find someone else whose light is indistinguishable from their darkness.
Thank you Brandon 🙂
” Lilith is only truly defined when she is either exactly conjunct the Moon or exactly opposite the Moon. ” WOW..
what does it mean?
I hve my Lilith conj Moon, by 4 degrees.. moon is in libra, and lilith is in scorpio. so what does it mean when it says it is defined when its conj moon?
Also some other points, moon pluto juno and Lilith are all closely conj in my chart, all in the 12th house, BUT conj. to my scorpio asc.
and i have been obessed with Lilith lately. its in 0 degree scorpio.
Sorry to write this again, as I was confused…
now that I use the h13, I did my chart again.. and found my true lilith to be EXACTLY conj. my moon in libra… but the other lilith with the black moon icon in astro.com, to be on “0” degree scorpio..
” Lilith is only truly defined when she is either exactly conjunct the Moon or exactly opposite the Moon. ” WOW..
what does it mean?
I hve my mean Lilith conj Moon, by 4 degrees.. moon is in libra, and mean lilith is in scorpio, but true lilith is in exact conj. with libra moon. so what does it mean when it says it is defined when its conj moon?
Also some other points, moon pluto juno and Lilith are all closely conj in my chart, all in the 12th house, BUT conj. to my scorpio asc.
and i have been obsessed with Lilith lately.
Hi Sonia – apologies for the delayed response. Lilith is more defined because we know exactly where she is. She is no longer a hypothetical ‘ghost’, she is manifest. For some people it can mean a difficult relationship with the Mother figure or with other women or it may mean feeling powerful, deep and raw emotions. Feminism may also be highlighted. Sometimes it could be a feeling of being emotionally exiled at times.
Omg! I do feel emotionally exiled a lot! Many times.
Is there any cure to it? Like finding someone who has the same aspect? Would that work?
Actually i do know someone which that exact aspect. I like him. Would that be a good way to both feel a keenship from that feeling of emotional loneliness?
In my chart:
True Black Moon Lilith in 5’42 Scorpio R
conjunct Sun in 5’20 Scorpio
conjunct Ixion in 5’24 Scorpio
conjunct South Eris Node in 5’30 Scorpio
born October 29, 1971
San Francisco, CA
3:20
Winona Ryder and I were born on the same day, and so she has the same aspects
This makes me sad. I’m 6 months into my deep astrology studies/obsession and suddenly realizing how “oh, my moon is right on this ‘lilith’ point”. My life is dark and twisted, beautiful yet broken, I fit everything I keep reading about her to a T, so glad to know why it is all so. I’ve been told I am the black widow so many times. This is hard, all I want is to be loved. In a head-over-heels sort of, give me your soul kind of way. What the hell. And they tell me I’m never satisfied, nothing is ever enough. I am not bad though. I am good… I just feel constantly wronged. Oh, my moon is 5 degrees libra and lilith is 5 degrees scorpio. Both sit in my 8th house. I’m impossible, forever damaged. Hah.
Sonia are we the same person? My last name is Ansonia. I have way too many house xii planets too.
Thanks for the interesting article. I have BML in 4th house, as the apex of a tight Yod to North Node [0’08] and MC conjunct Moon [0’25]. I’m not sure whether an aspect to the North node can be considered active, but i’m sure that the energy of BML in 4th has been active in my life. Middle World witches comments about BML in 4th house are echoed in my experience… “BML house placement: the area of life where you are demonized for the feminine aspects of your power and exiled from society.”
Marsala! Lol maybe we are the same! Lol..
Well it makes me sad too.. what should we do?
My mean Black Moon Lilith is conjunct my Sun. Meanwhile I wonder, whether this has any effect. My ‘true’ (I recently learned that there are more variants) Black Moon Lilith is more than six degrees away and different sign. I also don’t see much significance to this degree.
in a world where soul so often burdened
in layers of self doubt and conditioned guilt
when wings of night finally breach the dawn
over brilliant lavender sea
when fountains of earth
flood the firmament in unity
as visions of spheres
embrace the circle us
as stars in the constellation Coma Berenice
sign the promise of our return
en trance of the constellation Cancer
the sacred Beehive cluster of stars
our embodied souls
in Lilith Cazimi
Earth shines back to Sun
wed
You have a lot of really fascinating stuff here, Leah, both in your article and in the comments. It made me check out my Lilith / Priapus positions all over again.
Like you, I tend to prefer True Lilith to mean (& mingey?) Lilith. I just kept forgetting that astro.com was automatically giving me the mean version.
My mean vs True Liliths are at 29Lib31 & 0Sco20 respectively, in a tight trine to my tight Gemini/Cancer Moon/Venus conjunction. Priapus is trine Sun/Pluto.
Why did I never notice this before???
In a way that I find totally impossible to describe, this makes absolute sense to me.
Thank you for posting all this.
BTW, it’s one focus, many foci (final dispositor Mercury in Virgo).
Hi Char
Thanks for your comment. So glad you enjoyed the post. Thank you too for correcting me re. foci-focus – that totally slipped past me!!!
..really enjoyed the article, thanks..!
was looking for the meaning of a transit..”pluto opposite Lilith”, didnt find anything though..
I ll have another look…
In terms of celebraty charts, it is worth noting that Ivanka Trump has Moon conjunct Lilith. Ms Trump has other powerful conjunctions in her chart, too.
Thanks for the article! I have black moon lilith in a conjunction to my moon in my first house (all in libra). I’ve felt like an outcast my whole life. I don’t show all aspects of me cause I’m scared of them myself, let alone someone else, especially since I have a lot of squares in my chart (asc with venus/mars, moon with mars and others, plus a venus/mars conjunction in cancer). Priapus is rith on my descendant (I don’t know how this affects me, I haven’t figured it out). But lilith is extreme, she’s erotic and sexual with a deep and dark sexuality, yet she won’t compromise her independence. She won’t tolerate you telling her what to do and restricting her in any way. I read somewhere that lilith had to give birth to a hundred children a day and watch then die, as a punishment. Also, that women with lilith on their moon have struggles with fertility or they don’t want kids. And because of that pain, they might be very good caregivers for other people’s babies (hopefully without wanting to steak then, cause I’ve read that too). I don’t want kids. Not aware of fertility issues, but I’d prefer to adopt anyway. I struggle to feel accepted and heard. I’ve suppressed a lot of power within me because I don’t know how to express it constructively and with the highest degree of integrity. I’m not what people see I am (a naive and vulnerable young woman who is easy to exploit, but also a very kind person, kinda too good to be true. They struggle to see the real me, without exaggerating my traits). I’m a little scared to explore that part of myself, since it has brought me a lot of emotional pain and suppression, a little bit of paranoia as well (my moon/bml conjunction squares my neptune, so I have a lot of trouble with understanding emotions and even reality at times). But I want to do it, nevertheless, for it is the only way I can find my truth and truly evolve. Thanks again, Leah!
My Lilith poem, after a lifetime of her initiations of death…
Lilith so Fare…
(fare: the money (values) a woman on public transportation (spiritual journey) has to pay.
There are no contests with this Queen of Death!
Her shadow grows stronger with each individual step.
I am you when I recognized my impatience or anger,
or hysteria, but this was only a Maiden’s Tale.
Your fiery flame was the dress you wore
at the gate when we met, and many stories
were told in many lifetimes of your purifications.
Those were just history’s beginning two-thousand
years ago, you are much older. But not even you death,
can deny that the beginning has no ending.
In the middle of your life, silence and stillness
are yours alone, the eternal summer garden.
This is why you were feared, the divine night
with eternity as your greatest power. The god
fearing, would deny your power, but I never
deny one of my sisters, not even death.
Only fools banish death and never experience
her rebirth. When I went to visit you in the
magical forest, you showed me that the
kingdoms were only made of stone. My soul
was never made of stone, it was my foresight
that was broken and thrown out many lifetimes ago.
I stopped banishing myself, and it was then
I was able to see your starry nights, your
morning light and its mist of fire. A new moon
bird who sang the ancient’s songs of emotional
beings who do not fear “judgment”…
You were one of the primordial grandmothers
long before paganism, you were judged so harshly,
in the great circles. I joined your circle there long ago.
Here she rises like the ocean and releases her remembrance.
~Phoenix
Thank you for sharing your poem. My favourite line
“I stopped banishing myself, and it was then
I was able to see your starry nights, your
morning light and its mist of fire.”
<3
I have just checked Asteroid Lilith and Waldemath Black Moon. Waldemath is at about 7° Leo, intercepted in 10th, Trine Saturn Retrograde and Squared Mean Black Moon and Interpolated Black Moon. Asteroid Lilith #1181 is in a more interesting position: 19° Scorpio, at the end of 1st House, at about 5° from Mercury and 4° from Neptune (already in 2nd), Semi Sextile Sun at 19° Libra, Squared Moon at 21°55′ Aquarius and Sextile Pluto at 21° Virgo in 11th. I am a White Witch, but I know I am using only a bit of my power, because I am scared from (and I have also Priapus conjunct my South Node, as told in the other comment, so maybe I suppressed this power in other lifetimes too)